Howling Mad
So Republicans are in a major snit over Kerry's answer to a debate question about whether people are born gay. Here's the shocking thing he said:
We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.So. Did you catch the shocking part? You might have to read it another 4,000 times. Or I'll just summarize. Dick Cheney, who thanked John Edwards for applauding his family's openness and acceptance in the last debate, says he's a "pretty angry father" because Kerry said... something. He won't explain what part of what Kerry said made him so pretty mad.
Look, I know Republicans are used to being on the receiving end of the "What you said is offensive!" game. But now that you're the ones pointing fingers, let me offer a little tip: It helps if the person you're ostensibly offended by actually said something offensive.
Fortunately Elizabeth Edwards is here to assist the Cheney family in their fledgling attempts at feeling wounded. Mrs. Edwards actually was out of line when she took exception to Lynne Cheney joining her husband in criticizing Kerry. "I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences," Mrs. Edwards said, getting a wee bit too personal. And didn't Kerry just say that it's a sexual orientation, not a preference?
Mrs. Edwards and others should realize how important it is to recognize that gay people really are gay, not just enjoying a passing fad. You see, if God makes people gay, and God is infallible, then there's nothing wrong with being gay. It's a really simple idea, but some people have an difficult time getting it. And they need to.
Also, sorry about the lack of a relevant picture, but society has neglected to arrange for anything cool-looking to appear when you do a Google image search for "rainbow wolf." Apparently people are still caught up in the stereotype that wolves only like baying at the moon.
posted by laser cub @ 1:16 AM
5 comments
5 Comments:
"Mrs. Edwards and others should realize how important it is to recognize that gay people really are gay, not just enjoying a passing fad. You see, if God makes people gay, and God is infallible, then there's nothing wrong with being gay. It's a really simple idea, but some people have an difficult time getting it. And they need to."
I should hope that no one is ignorant enough to accuse gay people of just enjoying a passing fad (unless maybe we're talking about those who are "trying" homosexual encounters to see if they "might be gay"). On the other hand, what if God does not make people gay just like He doesn't make people alcoholics or prone to violence? After all, if God made humans male and female (along with other sexual organisms) then why would He subvert that natural, procreative, and complementary relationship by making some people with an unnatural, unprocreative, and noncomplementary "orientation" for homosexual relationships?
Wow, what a novel point. So gay people shouldn't enter into sexual relations because they lack the pairing of sex organs that results in reproduction. I assume you also oppose marriage and sexual relations between couples who are infertile, uninterested in having kids, past birthing age, or where the husband injured his groin by heroically jumping in front of a live grenade to save his fellow soldiers in Iraq.
Hey, since you can read God's mind and I can't, help me with something: would God prefer that an unwanted child be aborted, or that the baby be adopted by a pair of loving homosexuals in a long-term relationship? Just curious.
It would do the population of the United States a lot of good if they would (1) read more -much more- history, (2) travel abroad to the extent that they can appreciate that other cultures have different -yet valid- points of view, and (3) read some scientific reports.
Homosexuality was accepted among Greek men around 2,500 years ago, even some of their gods were homosexual. Yet (!) they produced some of the most beautiful art and architecture, they produced fierce warriors, and their culture gave birth to the democracy that guided our Founding Father's when they created this country.
The reigning ethos in the United States is uptight - and when that happens, whatever is forbidden becomes more and more of a problem. In the Netherlands, for example, where abortion and drug use is legal, the incidence of abortion is much lower than ours per capita, and it is the Americans who make fools of themselves in the coffee shops (which is where they allow the use of marijuana and hash).
Scientific research shows that homosexuality is mainly genetic with some influences of early experiences in the environment. Or, as I like to think of it, we are all as God makes us and WHO ARE WE to make judgements of any of God's creatures?
The Cheney's are once again using their daughter's homosexuality for political purposes, and they are the ones who should be ashamed: Not of her, but of themselves.
Well said, Suzanne and Anonymous!
Wow, I didn't realize my response would set off such a diverse discussion! In my first post I was attempting to address laser cub's hypothesis that God makes people gay, nothing more. But,
laser cub said...
" Hey, since you can read God's mind and I can't, help me with something: would God prefer that an unwanted child be aborted, or that the baby be adopted by a pair of loving homosexuals in a long-term relationship? Just curious."Sorry, I assumed that since your statement referred to an infallible creator you meant the God who has chosen to reveal Himself through the Bible. He would clearly prefer the choice be for life and not death. However, I would like to see your evidence that babies are being aborted because of restrictions on adoption by homosexuals. Or is that not what you meant to imply?
Back to the subject of being born gay -
laser cub said...
" Wow, what a novel point. So gay people shouldn't enter into sexual relations because they lack the pairing of sex organs that results in reproduction. I assume you also oppose marriage and sexual relations between couples who are infertile, uninterested in having kids, past birthing age, or where the husband injured his groin by heroically jumping in front of a live grenade to save his fellow soldiers in Iraq."I made no assertion as to who should and should not enter into sexual relations with whom. I was merely debating whether God makes people gay. Then
Suzanne said...
" I know this comparison is hyperbole, but it makes a point: in the 1930s the German government exterminated the disabled because their condition was "unnatural" and against God's plan. We all know what the German government did next.
Justifying bigotry with appeals to the authority of "God" or "nature" always makes me nervous, not because I don't believe in God or the idea that some things truly are natural, but because we humans with our imperfect judgment are so often wrong. And those who invoke God or nature to justify their disapproval of a demographic of people tend to end up on the wrong side of history."Hyperbole is right Suzanne. Only the most extreme hatemonger would call for the extermination of gays or any other group of people whether their "condition" or "orientation" was "unnatural" or not. For the record it was laser cub who appealed to the authority of "God" as affirming homosexuality. I used "nature" to illustrate why I disagree with that hypothesis.
Anonymous said...
" It would do the population of the United States a lot of good if they would (1) read more -much more- history, (2) travel abroad to the extent that they can appreciate that other cultures have different -yet valid- points of view, and (3) read some scientific reports."and
" Scientific research shows that homosexuality is mainly genetic with some influences of early experiences in the environment. Or, as I like to think of it, we are all as God makes us and WHO ARE WE to make judgements of any of God's creatures?"Apparently Anonymous has either access to privileged information that we don't or has not read enough scientific reports. According to the American Psychiatric Association's Fact Sheet Concerning Sexual Orientation (hardly a trumpet of the religious right)
"...to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."and interestingly
"Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.”So am I a right-wing nut job or does the hypothesis that God makes people gay fall flat on its face? Shockingly, lesbian activist Camille Paglia actually takes my side of the debate in her book Vamps and Tramps (1994, New York: Vintage Books) by arguing:
"Homosexuality is not 'normal.' On the contrary it is a challenge to the norm...Nature exists whether academics like it or not. And in nature, procreation is the single relentless rule. That is the norm. Our sexual bodies were designed for reproduction...No one is born gay. The idea is ridiculous...homosexuality is an adaptation, not an inborn trait....."Suzanne said...
" Frankly it's none of our business whether being gay is a choice or whatever. Gays are citizens, period, and deserve equal rights, benefits and protections."Actually, homosexual activists have demanded that we make it our business by insisting that certain homosexual relationships be acknowledged and celebrated as normal "alternatives" to traditional heterosexual marriage.
I agree that gays are citizens, period, and deserve equal rights and protections. Gays have the same rights acknowleged by our Constitution and Bill of Rights as heterosexuals and those rights should be protected with equal veracity. We should then be very cautious in following the example of Canada, where governmental approval of gay marriage was quickly followed by the muzzling of free speech of those who disagree with that action.
I disagree with you on the subject of benefits. While I believe (like our country's founders) in God-given, inalienable rights as acknowleged by our Constitution and Bill of Rights, I see benefits as being given by government in order to reward and give incentive to those things which are most beneficial and strengthening to our society. Studies overwhelmingly show that familial groups anchored by a male father and female mother in a publicly committed relationship (marriage) are the best environment in which to raise and nurture children. We as a society, through our government, have acknowledged that by granting benefits such as tax breaks and legal status for spouses.
Anonymous said...
" Homosexuality was accepted among Greek men around 2,500 years ago, even some of their gods were homosexual. Yet (!) they produced some of the most beautiful art and architecture, they produced fierce warriors, and their culture gave birth to the democracy that guided our Founding Father's when they created this country.
The reigning ethos in the United States is uptight - and when that happens, whatever is forbidden becomes more and more of a problem. In the Netherlands, for example, where abortion and drug use is legal, the incidence of abortion is much lower than ours per capita, and it is the Americans who make fools of themselves in the coffee shops (which is where they allow the use of marijuana and hash)."Homosexuality may have been accepted by the Greeks but homosexual relationships were not equated with heterosexual marriages as normal for the advancement of Greek society as homosexuals are demanding today.
Did I miss something or is abortion not legal in the US? When you cite the incidence rate of abortion in the Netherlands does that number include chemical abortions caused by "morning after" pills such as RU-486? Has the use of these pills become as common there as condom usage? Arguing for the legalization of something based on it becoming more and more of a problem is a dangerous tactic. Since drunk driving is becoming more and more of a problem should we just eliminate laws banning it? Laws should protect the safety and welfare of citizens while infringing on their freedom as little as possible. The tough part in any debate is to come to agreement on how much individual freedom should be restricted for the safety and welfare of others.
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